In the Studio with Point of Know Return, featuring Kansas
This interview was taken from In The Studio for the Point of Know
Return, featuring Kansas. It's show #220, and originally aired on
September 7, 1992. The following abbreviations are used:
RB: Red Beard (interviewer)
PE: Phil Ehart
KL: Kerry Livgren
RB: For years, the band called Kansas, had struggled in small town bars
and dance halls, trying to get a break - trying to find a place for
themselves and their music. There are a thousand bands out there now
going through the same struggle, barely making enough money to pay the
rent, spending endless nights in cheap motels. But they endure it, in
the hope that someday, somehow, they'll get their shot. For the members
of Kansas, 6 friends from Topeka, the dream came true. In 1976, Kansas
had a triple platinum hit - an album called Leftoverture. From then on,
everything would be easy. Or so they thought. But it wasn't easy.
Success never is. What happened to Kansas is something that happens far
too often. Instead of joy, the success brought pressure. The pressure
created tension, and eventually the friends from Topeka broke apart.
Their dreams, and their achievements, lost in a swirl of lawsuits and
angry words. It had begun, even as they were making the follow-up to
Leftoverture. The album was called, ironically enough, Point of Know
Return. It would be Kansas' most successful album. But it would also
mark the beginning of the end. Here's Kansas' cofounder, Kerry Livgren.
KL: It was a hard thing to live with, you know - success is harder to
live with than the road getting to it, I thought. We lived in some
amazing poverty (laughs), and we had a really rough road and people
thought we were making all this money, and we were getting this little
salary - like $75 to $100 a week. And all of a sudden that changed
rather abruptly and dramatically. And all of a sudden we had everything
we ever wanted - just tossed in your lap. You've had this "pie in the
sky" dream for like 10 years, and all of a sudden here you are - you got
it, you know. What do you do next? That's a hard thing to deal with in
your life - it really is. Cause when you have a direction, that's
great. But when you get to the destination, you no longer have a
direction - you're there. And that's real tough.
PLAYS "POINT OF KNOW RETURN"
RB: That's the title song, from Point of Know Return, released in
September of 1977. Even at their peak, Kansas was a band with no
instantly recognizable stars. Steve Walsh sang most of the songs, and
Kerry Livgren was the chief songwriter and lead guitarist. But on
stage, violinist Robby Steinhardt was often the one who interacted most
with the audience. While bass player Dave Hope, drummer Phil Ehart, and
guitarist Rich Williams stayed in the background. Here's Kerry Livgren.
KL: In the band, everybody had their role. Everybody knew what
everybody else's role was. We considered - it was never a spoken rule -
but we considered ego to be the enemy. Dave's function, interestingly
enough, - I've never been in another band who had a guy like this - he
felt like his calling was to put everybody in their place. If you saw
somebody getting out of hand, he had a way of just bringing you right
down to earth. You know, he'd make some comment or something and just
chop you right down - in a good way, constructively. Phil was the
organizational leader, he was the guy who made a lot of the real
pragmatic decisions about the band. I kind of surfaced as the musical
leader. I sort of was the rudder that steered us in whatever direction
we went. Steve was the singer, and the additional writer who had a lot
to contribute. Robby had a totally unique function as a violinist,
second vocalist, and MC in a live situation. Robby was the link between
the band on the stage and the audience. Everybody had their role, and
if anything destroyed that early version of Kansas, or caused it to
cease to be, I think it was success. Success eventually - I don't care
who you are - will get to you. And we began to quibble with one
another, and fight over the direction of the band, and it eventually
caused us to fragment.
RB: Kansas had been together for 6 years, and recorded 3 albums by the
time Leftoverture became a hit in 1976. With all the attention that
suddenly came their way, writing songs for a following album wasn't
easy. Phil Ehart, cofounder of Kansas, remembers.
PE: We came home - at this time most of the guys - I mean, even though a
lot of money had come in, a lot of guys were still kind of living in
apartments and stuff. You know, there was money put away, but it was
kind of like - we just did a triple platinum album, and now we've got to
top that. And it was like, OK, let's just see what happens. But it
really didn't click till all 6 of us walked in the room - all of a
sudden here's this entity, somehow that worked. When you factioned it,
it didn't work. But when the 6 of us were in the rehearsal hall, all of
a sudden Dust in the Wind pops up. Steve walks in with Point of Know
Return. He walks in with Closet Chronicles. All of a sudden these
songs that made the album what it was, just - boom, you know. Because
the 6 of us were there - we were running through things, we were
practicing things, we're all coming up with ideas and names for album
titles. You know, all kinds of things that were used - and each guy
spurred on the other guy.
PLAYS "CLOSET CHRONICLES"
RB: That's Closet Chronicles, written by Steve Walsh and Kerry Livgren.
When we come back, we'll find out who the song "Portrait" is really
about. I'm Red Beard, and you're in the studio, for Kansas' Point of
Know Return.
[Break]
PE: Welcome back. I'm Phil Ehart of Kansas, in the studio, for Point of
Know Return.
RB: And I'm Red Beard. Perhaps the person who felt the most pressure,
after the success of Leftoverture, was vocalist Steve Walsh. Normally a
fine songwriter, Walsh had hit a writers block during the recording of
Leftoverture. He was determined not to have that happen again with
Point of Know Return. The pressure on Walsh was so great, that at one
point during the recording of Point, he said he was quitting the band.
Phil Ehart remembers.
PE: Steve was the more "rock" side of Kansas, in the songs that he wrote
and how he wanted the band to be. And we were getting anything but rock
here. Maybe in Lightning's Hand or Sparks of the Tempest, or maybe just
a couple of songs on this album were really rock oriented. And I think
Steve always wanted to rock more - and it was a compromise for him - he
wanted to rock harder. But OK, we could rock for awhile, but then we
had to turn around and do Dust in the Wind, or something else like that.
And I know that bugged him, and he and Kerry were going at it pretty
heavy. But that's the way anything great comes out - is through
conflict. I mean, it's just - you got to fight and scratch and usually
the great stuff survives, and that's what happened. You know, Point of
Know Return turned out to be our largest selling album ever.
PLAYS "SPARKS OF THE TEMPEST"
RB: With alternating vocals by Robby Steinhardt and Steve Walsh, that's
Sparks of the Tempest, from Kansas' Point of Know Return. A fitting
song, considering the circumstances. Here's Kerry Livgren.
KL: We thought the band was over with. So we thought, well, even if
that's true - if the band's splitting up, we'd be fools not to go ahead
and finish this thing. So we just kept on working, and then you know,
once everything kind of settled down and blew over, everybody realized,
not only do we have to not break up and finish this record, but we need
to continue on as a band. None of this is worth breaking up over - it
really isn't. So it was just a very intense, emotional scenario that
given a little time, kind of healed over.
RB: In spite of the chaos, Livgren's songwriting continued to flourish.
Among his contributions to Point of Know Return, was the song called
Portrait. And you might be surprised to find out who Kerry was really
writing about.
KL: I've always been a very avid reader - read a lot of science fiction,
read a lot of philosophy, a lot of religious books, a lot of science,
and I was always fascinated by Albert Einstein, and the fact that he
went so far with mathematics and physics, that he actually crossed the
line into metaphysics and philosophy, and he was actually getting to the
very fabric of the universe. I thought, what an amazing man. And I was
so fascinated with the guy, one day I wrote a song about him. The
interesting thing about Portrait, is that nobody seemed to catch on who
it was about. I mean, the list of people who they thought that was
about was incredibly long. And people would come up with all these
reasons why this is who they thought it was about. And they would
always corner me and say "who's that about?". When I would say Albert
Einstein, they'd give me this blank look like "Wow, I never thought of
that!", you know. So whenever you can stimulate people to think, and to
speculate and stuff, I consider it a success. You know, that was one of
my personal goals in songwriting - was to make people use their brain
cells.
PLAYS "PORTRAIT (HE KNEW)"
RB: That's Portrait by Kerry Livgren, who's 1980 conversion to born
again Christianity was one of the factors that eventually led to him
leaving the band, Kansas. In 1988, Livgren recorded an updated version
of the song, changing the lyrics so they'd be about Jesus Christ. Kerry
Livgren wrote, or co-wrote 8 of the 10 songs on Point of Know Return,
including one called Lightning's Hand.
KL: When we were touring - for the Point of Know Return tour, we
thought, we've got to have something in our show - in our live show -
that nobody's ever had. We want to do something really different. You
know, we don't want to do smoke bombs, and we don't want to use - you
know, all the usual stuff. So we kind of put the word out that we
wanted something different. Well these people contacted us, and they
said "Look you guys - we've got - we think we've got exactly what you
need. You got this song - Lightning's Hand. We've invented a lightning
machine, that will make bolts of lightning in the concert hall." And we
thought - Hey! Man, this sounds really cool! So we rented this huge
warehouse down by the Atlanta airport, and we said "OK, you bring the
machine down out there - we'll set up the band - let's try this thing
out." So these guys brought this omnimus looking big machine in there -
it had big electrodes on it - it looked like something out of a
Frankenstein movie, you know - these things would - bzzzt, bzzzt - and
we were standing there, just transfixed at this thing, and the guy came
up to Robby, who sang that song - Lightning's Hand, he said "OK. What
you do is you hold this sword in your hand, and there's a cord that runs
out of the sword down to your foot to ground you", and he says "When you
get to that line in the song where you say 'I command the lightning's
hand', you hold out the sword, we'll flip the switch, and the bolt of
lightning will jump across the stage and hit your sword, and go right
out through the cord, and you won't feel anything." Well, Robby looked
white as a ghost. Well, first of all, he gets out there - and we're
thinking, aw man, this is going to be great! All of a sudden the guy
turns on the machine, and Robby's mountain of hair starts sticking
straight up, moving all over the place, and he looked really bizarre.
And he got to that line in the song, and the bolt of lightning jumped
out, and bit him right on the neck. Knocked him down on the ground,
(laughs) - he's lying writhing around on the ground, and this thing's
going bzzzt, bzzzt, bzzzt - and we're going "SHUT IT OFF! SHUT IT OFF!"
(laughs), and scared the devil out of him. We tried it at one concert,
the first concert on that tour - on the Point of Know Return tour - we
were in Miami, we turn on the lightning machine, and it jumped out and
it blew about half the speakers and the PA. So we thought, this isn't
going to work! (laughs)
PLAYS "LIGHTNING'S HAND"
RB: That's Lightning's Hand, with Robby Steinhardt on vocals. Next,
we'll hear the story behind Kansas' most recognizable song, Dust in the
Wind. I'm Red Beard, and your in the studio, for Point of Know Return.
[Break]
KL: Welcome back to In The Studio for Kansas' Point of Know Return. I'm
Kerry Livgren.
RB: And I'm Red Beard. Kansas had a reputation for making very serious
progressive rock. But the band was full of practical jokers, as Kerry
Livgren recalls.
KL: One night on stage, we brought out a barber's chair, brought out our
band accountant, and shaved his head with a spotlight on him. And
instead of laughing, the audience thought it was some kind of bizarre
ritual that we were doing (laughs). I mean, they never got the point -
and we were howling - we were just dying laughing! And another time on
the Point of Know Return tour, we had a Plexiglas stage, and the
lighting was down underneath it - it was really nice. But I was out
there playing Dust in the Wind one night, and I look down, and directly
underneath me was a stark naked girl, lying on her back, looking up at
me, who someone had talked into going under there. And, it was a little
difficult to concentrate on - you know, this philosophical, spiritual
song with a naked girl parading around underneath you. You know, there
was always stuff going on that the audience - either sometimes was
unaware of - other times they did see it - dropping plastic chickens
down from the lights. I mean there was just all kinds of crazy stuff
that went on (laughs).
PLAYS "NOBODY'S HOME"
RB: That's Nobody's Home, from Point of Know Return. The biggest hit
from this album was Kerry Livgren's Dust in the Wind. It made it to #6
on the singles chart, Kansas' only Top 10 hit. Here's Kerry Livgren.
KL: More people seemed to identify with what I said in that song - and
that really surprised me. Cause in a way, that's kind of a dismal song,
you know? I was reading a book on American Indian poetry one day, and I
came across that line - this American Indian said "for all we are is
dust in the wind." And I thought, well, you know, that's really true.
Here I got all this success - I've got material possessions - I've got a
goal in my life that had been accomplished at that point, but I'm going
back into the ground - and what does this really mean in light of that?
And that's really kind of the message of that song, but the amazing
thing was that so many people identified with that. And that song ended
up on the country charts, on the middle of the road chart, easy
listening - and it crossed all kinds of boundaries. The way the song
came about - I've always been a - you know, as lead guitar player of the
band, a rock & roll electric guitar player. I've never really been an
acoustic guitar player. So I was kind of trying to expand my musical
horizons, and I had this acoustic guitar, and I was trying to learn to
fingerpick. So I made up this finger exercise, to teach myself to
fingerpick. And I was sitting in my music room, playing this thing, and
my wife walked by - and she stood there and listened for a second, and
she goes "Boy, that's really pretty - you should make words with that."
I said "No, honey - this is just - I'm just trying to learn how to - how
to do this." She goes "No, no - that's really nice - don't forget that
now." And she kept bugging me about this "pretty thing", you know. She
really seemed to latch onto it, so I made it into a song. And once
again, we were almost done with rehearsal for Point of Know Return -
pretty well learned all the songs, and we kind of got to the end of
things, and they said "Have you got any more songs?" And I said "Well,
I've got this one, but you guys wouldn't like it - I mean, this is not
Kansas." Now, I'm really hesitant to even play it. "Come on, play the
song!" So I played the song, on acoustic guitar, and everybody kind of
stood there and said "We need to be doing this song." And I was amazed!
In fact, I rejected the whole idea - I actually fought with the band
over - you know, the fact that we shouldn't do this song. I thought,
this is not us! Well, shows you what I know about - you know, the value
of a song. Cause it turned out to be our biggest hit ever.
PLAYS "DUST IN THE WIND"
RB: Point of Know Return sold more than 3 million copies, and the band
never again matched its success. Steve Walsh left in 1981, and the band
broke up in 1983. But in 1986, Walsh, Ehart and Rich Williams reunited,
playing as Kansas once again. Kerry Livgren is a farmer in Georgia now,
occasionally recording solo albums for a Christian label. For Livgren,
the bitterness has passed. His memories are fond ones.
KL: We beat the odds. And we came out of a place where the odds were so
stacked against us. Not only in what we had access to, as far as trying
to get a record deal and all that - we had such an incredible past. I
mean, we hung together when the times where harder than most people ever
imagined we went through. I mean, I tell people about 1970 - the year
that in the entire year, I made 5 bucks. I mean, that's below any known
poverty level I know. I mean, we ate rice - we went through an
experience - we all made a pact - we had a goal we were going to achieve
or die trying. We did it, and nobody can ever take that away. I mean,
it's something that we have a shared experience that - you know, no
matter what ever happens, there's no way to remove that from you. It's
a part of us - we're a part of each other.
PLAYS "PARADOX"
RB: Back in the studio, after this.
RB: I'm Red Beard, and we'd like to thank Kerry Livgren and Phil Ehart
for marking the 15th Anniversary of the album, Point of Know Return.
We'd also like to thank Steve Walsh of Kansas.
THE END